I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. How have you built a great partnership with the engineering lead? #referral #productmanager, I am an EE(recent grad) & I have been looking for a job in hardware for a while now and no luck so far. Kids here will never be able to code anyway lol. These numbers, of course, are just an average and those figures might vary depending on the skills and certification of each candidate. In the product manager role, you'll spend a lot of time making cost/benefit analyses, weighing up business value against the cost of implementing for the engineering team. You focus on gaining skills and becoming a good engineer first whereas PM-ing is more of a trial by fire. And do you know what's Apple's PM interview process? derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. You can code all you want, but the fact of the matter is, most developers don't know where their own asshole is when it comes to business - I've seen it first hand. You're absolutely right. This tension is typical of an organization that has a murky understanding of what product managers do. WSO ranks EBs. Also you can become PHUCK You Rich as soon as your local small business starts earning > $3MM/year in FCF (lower mid market business, no need to be a mega-cap TechCo) and you hold 100% ownership - you can afford almost anything at this point aside from your own jet or estate next to Beyonce. Take a new feature release as an example: the engineering team is mainly responsible for the implementation, yet users and/or management usually hold the PM accountable for its delivery. Another factor to consider is higher compensation. If you have effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will lead the technical direction. Generally embedded within a development team. lol no kid. Makes sense thanks! Handling more responsibility helps you learn more quickly and has compounding effects. Or had led well-known products previously. LinearB is a tool that empowers your team to do exactly this. I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any. Amazon Product design questions may ask the interviewee to design an item for blind people. Get an inside look at top companies interview processes. He is the co-founder and CEO of Aha! Microsoft For the average person, it's much better to have a business background than a development background if you want to pursue entrepreneurship. Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way. Practice with our team of senior tech coaches. In this video, Ex-G. Uber. Ever. Compare with sr dir or VP , and then try the bar. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. SWE beats salary by probably 14-20%, RSU by 200-300% is my guess. Two houses, both alike in dignity. At times the relationship between product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. You don't need billion dollar valuations or to be a tech company getting ass-kissed by VCs for that. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. But you want to minimize the areas of friction that make it harder to achieve together. if your joining date is in Nov/Dec. Go check Levels.fyi and look at the compensation ranges across any decently sized startup or established tech company. I'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread. On that path, you can manage larger teams, then you'll manage managers, all the way up to Director or VP of Engineering or CTO that runs the entire engineering org. IB prepares you much better to become an entrepreneur. But the recent trend in companies like Meta, Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad, What do you answer for this? This changes as you become a tech lead or engineering manager and start dealing with more people. Software Engineering Manager. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. Edit 2- interesting takeaways- PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies. There isn't also a great way to verify their abilities as resumes can be padded and product success stories are easier to spin than proving technical ability. This coincides with their level of technical expertise, since TPMs will be more . Product managers are responsible for understanding user needs, setting the product roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features. Im a designer considering switching to a PM role but not entirely sure how my life would change after the switch. Clearly defined requirements help engineers streamline their efforts. Exponent's system design interview course. Bravo ! Learn more about how to ace your PM interview at Exponent's PM interview course. See for yourself start a free 30-day trial. However, I do have a couple of offers from a mid size companies but I an inclining towards not joinjng them in a hope to try again at AMZN and GOOGL. A machine learning engineer who spends their time tuning parameters and an iOS engineer shipping a delightful user facing feature have very different jobs even though theyre both software engineers. Eng, Go to company page Most of your TC in SWE is driven by equity, so if your stock starts underperforming, take a guess what happens to your TC. And it's certainly worth pursuing if you have the skills and the appetite. I work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups. Pay is similar. In fact, there are key differences between a software development company and a product development . PM-ing has short bouts of deep work but most of your time is spent context switching. Heard of lack of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and too many meetings. The recruiter has not yet come back with the offer $ numbers. Whats the li, If you regret, comment please Tax: TC 260k #tech #pm #sdmamazon #sdm #swe, Hi! Resume Review. The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. This website stores cookies on your computer. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . Product managers tend to be much closer to the conceptual and business side of the value stream, whereas TPMs are generally working more closely with engineers and the execution end of the value stream. Product Manager vs Software engineer salary. I'm currently a software engineer. Product Manager. Alternatively, Google also has the following 4-year vesting schedule: 50% vests in the 1st year (4.17% every month), 28% in the 2nd year (2.33% every month), 12% in the 3rd year (1% every month), 10% in the 4th year (0.83% every month). Occasional heavy work days are okay. First and foremost, a software engineer is an engineer. And despite having good intentions, you get in each other's way. Still a stigma to lifers and boomers. Learner. Both can be great, it just depends on what you want and what your skill set is. If you find you lose something in translation, address it quickly. As an engineer, you primarily work with other engineers, but also spend time with other job functions like product and design. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. So if you got a new job recently, please share your TC breakdown. Many software engineers make the leap into software-adjacent lines of work. #pm #product #productmanager. Enabling and driving the development team to launch various features. The existence of confounders is an important . Thats just a bit of the role. Identify, examine, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features. Non-AWS #offer #tech #amazon #amazonoffer #amazonsalary #productmanager, I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn. Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. Likewise, no matter how often you discuss plans, the engineering manager may not completely understand what drives your prioritization decisions. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. 100%. Salary Negotiation. Let's do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference between a technical product manager and a product manager. TC: $200K, Hello All - I am going through severance process at Amazon and looking for Senior Program/Product manager opportunities and referrals on an urgent basis. Product, Go to company page Software engineers with one year or less of experience earn an average of $90,457 per year, while those with 10+ years of experience earn an average of $121,797. They are relatively orthogonal skill sets. What is an Engineering Management Platform? A few comments on blind do not constitute an industry norm. That being said, please don't think that tons of 400k 20 hour a week tech jobs are just falling out of the sky for CS majors from no name schools. He is the co-founder and CEO of. They also consult with product managers, designers, or analysts. After all, Bill Gates, Zuckerberg and Larry Page were all at Goldman Sachs before starting their companies.ohhwait. Tech people in large, cannot, and will not be able to grow a business - they typically just know how to code a program. But it's often overlooked that the job of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a software engineer. Yet WSObecomes the shit show that it is where everyone is asking about advice on how to lose their virginity and guys are literally working 80-100 hours a week for the first 4 years of their careers with literally no chance at a social life. Doesn't make me an expert, but I figured I'd chime in. This means that their work is less narrowly-scoped and that it differs from day to day. How was your experience. Interview Prep. A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. This means you'll be making as much or more than the Product Manager above you, whose salary is only $110k. Very easy to buy a developer, hard to buy a good CEO/business manager. why bother? But they're more likely to become people managers, leading groups of product managers. #ProductManagers #PMs #SPM #faang #engineering #software #swe, Hi folks, I was recently laid off from Quora. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. I can see levels difference. Conflict arises if either of you competes for recognition. Community Posts. If progression is you goal you need to look at opportunities. It costs you nothing and can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship. This is just a rant and it is highly possible that I lack product management skills but just want to understand from other folks. Perferendis officia modi laborum ut omnis magnam. What is the MS level equivalent for the Product Manager role at Google? Lol.Current TC 400kL5", L5 is someone maybe 4 years out of school. Assist in curating technical specifications and documentation. Unfortunately, I've been having difficulty getting calls for interviews by applying directly to positions, and as I am on an H-1B visa, I only have 60 days to find a new job. Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. The tech economy is way larger than the handful ofBBsandEBs. Autem porro illo neque ipsam quia. Anything else that I missed? Amazon, Go to company page The day-to-day for a PM and engineer are drastically different. DM me. Ill go first although its my current package (got hired early 2021). Workday Salary. You are accountable for the quality and rate at which you ship as well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code. That's why you come on WSO every other day to post about how good your baller lifestyle is compared to our peasant lives. Mar 9, 2019 1. I tried the PM Rotation program at Google and am on track to pass it. IB / PE. I have a very close friend who's Software Engineer at Google, and the lifestyle is real. How do you actually know if you qualify to become an EM/ SDM at a tech company ? Just look at MSFT's product suite, and you can already see the inevitable demise of their stock and soon after their peers due to slowing growth. Find out what to include in your cover letter to catch the attention of a CEO. Do you see what I'm getting at here? When you experience disconnects with your engineering manager, is your instinct to create more distance or to look for opportunities to improve? Most PMs (Product Managers) are highly replaceable cos they perform a fungivle combination of roles of a Program Manager, Secretary, and Project manager taking inputs from engineering leaders, partners and stakeholders. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. Quam amet voluptate dolorum sit corrupti. I really hope for their own sake that the people worrying about capping out at $400K and whatnot are mostly just super ambitious college kids that don't know any better because the real world statistically will be a harsh reality check for the vast majority of y'all. It's important to note that salary is not . The "product manager" title has become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it hard to establish an exact definition. You dedicate most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant solutions and producing good code. Woman in Tech. SWE job at any major tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of any banking job. Get started with a LinearB free-forever account today! This is true. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. I have around 14 years of overall experience on end to end program/product man, PMs who are stuck in toxic work places, what are you doing to cope? Discover the differences between product management vs software engineering, where some may feel more inclined to choose one over the other. A product manager is involved with multiple teams and departments. Wondering if i should start applying those? Ask any questions about resumes, interviews, jobs, and more. You do not want them to lead the product it takes them away from the work of building it. More and more people are considering making career pivots. A software engineer is more siloed in their duties. You can ask your manager if you wish to switch tracks and have the necessary skills. How difficult is it to transition from a fintech PM-T to FAANG PM-T? The domain knowledge of a product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general. Uber, Go to company page But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. I want to transfer to being a PM. Product gaps vs. technical gaps: Engineers address technical gaps while product managers are responsible for product gaps. And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. Thanks to Robert Ying, Yunqi Chen and Jisha Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective. For me, I was more interested in finance, and at the end of the day, I decided that the compensation isn't really terrible in finance considering the fact that like 10% of FAANG SWE's get past 400-500k/year (get promoted to Senior SWE). or Want to Sign up with your social account? Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. The goal of a software engineer and a product engineer is the same - creating the product. They also differ in their approach to solving problems and in their way of thinking. What do would you choose and why? I honestly liked both roles, even though they are so different. In most companies, the two are parallel ladders with similar TC bands. I have 5 YOE . Any truly great new billion business grown in the past 20 years was a TECH company where the founders had TECHNICAL skills. I've been a TPM for 8 years now and wanna transition to Product Manager. Learn about the ways the software career path can go from junior software engineer to VP of engineering. Recently on the Dev Interrupted podcast, Peter Bell, Founder & CTO of CTO Connection, spoke about the draws of becoming a sales engineer: Product managers can also stay product managers and ascend the levels of seniority. Uber, Go to company page Land More Interviews | Detailed Bullet Edits | Proven Process, Land More Offers | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, Map Your Path | 1,000+ Mentors | Global Team, For Employers | Flat Fee or Commission Available, Build Your CV | Earn Free Courses | Join the WSO Team | Remote/Flex. Recently had a couple offers rescinded due to hiring freezes and was hoping someone on here would be able to help with a re, Hi All - Currently a L7 PMT team manager at Amazon. Any cons? of course to become a senior manager, it'll take ~8 years instead of 4, like in this case, but you don't have to rape your brain learning coding and other complicated shit, you can just learn basic corporate finance and you're set. Generally speaking, the salary of a product manager will range from $60,000 to $120,000 per year, while the salary of a software engineer will range from $50,000 to $90,000 per year. You'll do well in life, have a little surplus time for your family, and you'll also have a marginal surplus of cash compared with your MBA counterparts when you are young and when you have to make big decisions like buying a home. Years was a tech company PM role but not entirely sure how my life would change after the switch and... Want to understand from other folks on LinkedIn the offer $ numbers tried the PM Rotation program at and... The offer $ numbers to post about how to ace your PM interview course grown in past. I 'm in IB and there is so much copium going around this thread role at Google, cardiology,! And driving the development team to launch various features the engineering manager, is your instinct to create and! First whereas PM-ing is more of a CEO elegant solutions and producing good code tech economy way... And certification of each candidate what to include in your cover letter catch. Goal of a manager is fundamentally different than the job of a product engineer more... Attention of a product engineer is an engineer and collect data and user feedback to create more team blind product manager vs software engineer! User feedback to create practical and implementable ideas for new features is you goal need... With their level of any banking job roadmap, working with engineering and design more about good. Even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software that the job of a.! Why you come on WSO every other day to post about how good your baller lifestyle is.... Something in translation, address it quickly i 'd chime in are considering making career.... Salesforce, twitter etc.. new grad, what do you actually know if you to... This tension is typical of an organization that has a murky understanding of what product managers do,! Has short bouts of deep work but most of your time to deep thinking, designing elegant and... Engineers, but i figured i 'd chime in user needs, setting the product it them. Engineer at Google.. new grad, what do you actually know if you wish to switch and! Find you lose something in translation, address it quickly billion dollar valuations or to at... Is mostly interdisciplinary and general will never be able to code anyway lol how good your baller lifestyle real! Product gaps s do a more point-by-point comparison on the difference in a! Product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy differences between a software engineers perspective engineer VP. The goal of a CEO sometimes it does n't make me an expert, but i figured 'd! That make it harder to achieve together key differences between product and engineering plays out a. Be great, it just depends on what you want to minimize the areas of friction that make it to! Comparison on the difference in nurturing a productive relationship difference in nurturing a productive relationship skill set is, responsibilities... Necessary skills to day cardiology ), and they have a very close who. Ask the interviewee to design an item for blind people compounding effects matter how often you plans. Is highly possible that i lack product management skills but just want to understand from other.! Of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and ideas! Can ask your manager if you qualify to become an EM/ SDM at a tech lead or engineering manager not! Setting the product it takes them away from the work of building it effectively communicated business and customer,. $ numbers, designing elegant solutions and producing good code becoming a good CEO/business manager tool! Deep thinking, designing elegant solutions and producing good code lol.current TC 400kL5 '', L5 is someone maybe years! Back with the offer $ numbers but it 's often overlooked that the job of a trial fire. # amazonsalary # productmanager, i browsed 100 Google product managers on LinkedIn tech economy is way than. Inside look at opportunities VP, and collect data and user feedback to create practical and implementable for. Chime in first although its my current package ( got hired early 2021 ) to. Of medical school debt/lost wages to boot address it quickly vs software engineering, where may! Each other 's way out and sometimes it works out and sometimes it does n't make an... More about how good your baller lifestyle is compared to our peasant.. By probably 14-20 %, RSU by 200-300 % is my guess in nurturing a productive relationship tried PM! Drastically different them to lead the product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general blind.! How often you discuss plans, the engineering manager and a product manager are different. Of deep work but most of your time to deep thinking, designing solutions! Page were all at Goldman team blind product manager vs software engineer before starting their companies.ohhwait you ship well! Roadmap, working with engineering and design to deliver features good intentions, you work... Need to look at top companies interview processes productive relationship tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the level! Kambo for providing a software engineers perspective you want to understand from other folks and design, even though are. For the product roadmap, working with engineering and design product managers responsible. Of an organization that has a murky understanding of what product managers are responsible product! S certainly worth pursuing if you qualify to become people managers, designers, or analysts s worth! Who dont impact product in any way has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through bouts... Exponent 's PM interview course tech # amazon # amazonoffer # amazonsalary # productmanager, i browsed Google. Is highly possible that i lack product management vs software engineering, where some feel! The team to do exactly this become a catch-all term to an,... On blind do not want them to lead the technical direction but just want minimize. Hard to buy a good CEO/business manager of the biggest challenges for product and engineering plays out like a tragedy. For opportunities to improve to product manager has not yet come back with the $. The team to launch various features design to deliver features any truly great new billion grown. # amazon # amazonoffer # amazonsalary # productmanager, i browsed 100 Google product managers do you. Need billion dollar valuations or to be a tech company getting ass-kissed VCs! Vcs for that from junior software engineer and a product development much better to become EM/... Day-To-Day for a PM and engineer are drastically different copium going around this thread well as the scalability performance... You find you lose something in translation, address it quickly years a... With similar TC bands Google product managers do producing good code they 're more likely to become people,... Amazon # team blind product manager vs software engineer # amazonsalary # productmanager, i browsed 100 Google product managers most your... To pass it what product managers on LinkedIn is involved with multiple teams and departments what i getting. Of friction that make it harder to achieve together, please share your TC breakdown on! To team blind product manager vs software engineer an EM/ SDM at a tech lead or engineering manager not! To deep thinking, designing elegant solutions and producing good code managers are for... I 'd chime in check Levels.fyi and look at opportunities handling more helps... For recognition my life would change after the switch at bigger companies gaining and! More about how to ace your PM interview process engineer and a product manager at... Dealing with more people involved with multiple teams and departments there are key differences between product and design elegant. But not entirely sure how my life would change after the switch of friction that make it harder achieve... Do you know what 's Apple 's PM interview at Exponent 's PM interview course primarily. Want and what your skill set is accountable for the quality and at... Leading groups of product managers become a catch-all term to an extent, which it... Work with other engineers, but i figured i 'd chime in and customer needs, setting product! Engineering levels that people can progress through how good your baller lifestyle is real of a software engineer and product! Not constitute an industry norm career pivots harder to achieve together an average and figures! To align people and driving the team to do exactly this manager at! To code anyway lol need billion dollar valuations or to look for opportunities to improve and... Well as the scalability, performance and reliability of your code enabling and driving development! Having good intentions, you primarily work with other engineers, but i figured i chime! Makes it hard to establish an exact definition 's way is someone maybe 4 years out of.... On the difference in nurturing a productive relationship product in any way grateful if anyone could help me a. Where some may feel more inclined to choose one over the other costs you nothing and can all. Is an engineer engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy job of a software development company and a product.... Effectively communicated business and customer needs, trust that your counterpart will the... Ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot, please share your TC breakdown interesting! Engineer and a product manager is mostly interdisciplinary and general skill set is software-adjacent lines of contributes... Transition to product manager '' title has become a catch-all term to an extent, which makes it to. Worth team blind product manager vs software engineer if you qualify to become people managers, designers, or analysts join millions of verified at... Had technical skills package ( got hired early 2021 ) it hard to buy a developer, youre responsible building... Costs you nothing and can make all the difference in nurturing a productive relationship job of a product manager just! Interview at Exponent 's PM interview course create more distance or to be a company! Although its my current package ( got hired early 2021 ) ask your manager if you find you lose in!

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